The Winning ExchangeU.S. is helping broker a $20 billion deal to transition Indonesia off coal. The hope is this climate financing plan could be a model to move other developing counties away from coal-fired electricity. But Indonesian energy experts and solar executives worry much of this deal may just be "omong kosong" — empty talk.

Today on The Indicator, we bring you an episode of Short Wave, NPR's daily science podcast. Climate solutions reporter Julia Simon breaks down the realities and limitations of Indonesia's renewable energy aspirations with Short Wave co-host Aaron Scott.

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